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[dreamsoftomorrow]

What makes an Empire evil or bad?

The definition is simply that it's ruled by one person, but nowhere does it state that it's also inherently bad.

So, what makes it bad?

Why are we assuming Sen Devadatta is evil when from what I've read in the history books and from the locals, all they did was shut their doors. We don't know the reason yet either.

It's understandable to be wary and suspicious, but I don't think it's a good idea to go in believing we're going to be arrested or worse.

Comments

[nanaimo_bar]

The things that make a Empire evil, are its leadership and it's people. If they commit atrocities in the name of their rule, then they can be bad.

However, we have little to assume the Empire in this world is of martial oppression, and thus, naught. In fact, them shutting doors to the outside world more resembles Ishgard of my realm, rather than the Empire of Garlemald.

[einspine]

I WAS TOLD THAT IT'S BECAUSE EMPIRES CONQUER AND INVADE OTHER TERRITORIES...

BUT I JUST CAN'T FATHOM WHY THIS EMPIRE WOULD BE THE SAME. FROM WHAT I SAW OVER THE MOGNET, THEY WERE THREATENED.

PERSONALLY, I THINK THE LEAST WE CAN DO IS SHOW KINDNESS UNTIL WE'RE GIVEN A PROPER REASON TO FRET.

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[regisrex]

Well, there are various reasons, but I'll list the objective ones:

From what we know, the ruler changed the form of government out of fear. She also grabbed for more power. Generally, when someone in power reacts to something frightening by grabbing for more power, that is not a good sign. Reaching for more is... highly likely.

[ Not certain. But highly likely. ]

For another thing, there are various shapes of monarchy, or even practical monarchy. They did not turn themselves into a kingdom, for example. They became an empire, which is a claim to a certain set of expectations, both when it comes to internal politics and international relationships. The fact that they isolated themselves adds to that image, actually - 'shutting their doors' would be one thing if it was done for a short duration, but a decade does not bode well. It suggest there is much that they are hiding.

And another factor yet is that some people have negative experiences with empires. People draw conclusions for reasons that are not always logical.

All of these are reasons to be cautious, not in any way proof that Sen Devadatta is evil, or even likely evil. Just a reminder that fear takes many shapes, and none of them are kind to the bystanders.

[dreamsoftomorrow]

So, empires as a concept isn't really bad, it just all depends on who has the power. I can see how that could be very bad, and I take it a lot of people had that particular experience rather than a good one.

What about Ishgard though? Was it an empire too?

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[whirluendo_of_puns]

Well. An empire is a group of states or countries ruled by one person. The trouble is, most countries aren't that keen on letting some outsider waltz in to boss everyone around, so the process of actually becoming an empire often involves pretty copious amounts of murder.

I'm sure some of the alarm we're seeing started simply because empires make for convenient bad guys, but at the same time? When a president suddenly declares she wants to start an empire, you have to wonder how exactly she's planning on achieving that.

[dreamsoftomorrow]

That's what I read too. Although, it is a bit concerning that they changed from one type of government to another. But I guess we won't know if that was for the best or not until we meet them.

I'd rarher just keep my eyes and ears open and hope for the best, rather than go in looking for a fight or something. I don't think we have enough information, but it's not a bad thing to be wary.

[einspine]

[Papyrus nods. His smile's a bit weaker than usual, since it's a rather daunting subject, but...]

MAYBE IT WAS BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO KEEP ONE RULER IN CASE OF OUTSIDE ATTACKS? I ADMIT I DON'T KNOW A LOT ABOUT DEMOCRACY, BUT FROM WHAT I'VE SEEN IN HUMAN FILMS, IT SEEMS LIKE SOMETHING YOU PUT TO VOTE?

WHEREAS KEEPING ONE RULER COULD GUARANTEE STABILITY IN DIRE TIMES.

[Possibly. Granted, he's no politician. But when Toriel left, Undyne basically became the de-facto leader, and that seemed to bring stability to a degree.]

I'M GOING TO TRY AND BE FRIENDLY REGARDLESS, BUT SINCE WE'RE BEING GRANTED A CHANCE TO EXPLORE THIS NEW REGION, THIS COULD BE A GREAT OPPORTUNITY TO GATHER INFORMATION.

[nanaimo_bar]

It is all possible. The Empire of my realm is a hostile one, who forcibly annexes land and subjugates the people within it. However, we have seen nothing of the sort here, and thus is unfair to judge.

Ishgard was a city-state, with it's own lands and ruled by a church previously. Currently, it is run by Ser Aymeric, and is part of the Eorzea Alliance.

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[rivieran]

An empire is ruled by an emperor and empress. I have noticed that humans are irrationally afraid of governments ruled by people who call themselves as such. While I cannot speak for humans from realms that are not my own, a man who called himself the Immortal Emperor did carry out a reign of terror on the mainland where I am from. He was human and hailed from human lands - he may have perhaps chosen this name for himself precisely because he associates the word with fear and dominance. Why is that? I cannot say.

Regardless, we mustn't judge Sen Devadatta for being a closed country. Much like Sen Devadatta, my country is an island separated from most other territories and we have had periods of isolation in the past, and we are currently under policy of strictly controlled borders. This has mostly been to protect ourselves, as humans where I am from are notoriously greedy and have, more than once, tried to conquer us. I do plan on opening borders when [ if ] I take the throne, but it will be a slow and careful process.

While I agree we should be cautious, we should graciously accept their invitation and deal with them diplomatically. We are outsiders and I think it unfair that some of us are deciding to approach them with the attitude we have. I would be terribly offended if diplomatic envoys I invited personally into my territory readily assumed I did so to harm them, not restore relations!

[ It's the moogle typing. Best text to speech function. ]

[littlemhigan]

the only experience i've had with an empire has been with garlemald back home, and they are never good tidings.

i feel it's understandable to be wary of something sharing a name with an entity that spends its time conquering other countries.

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[promiselisting]

[ And then there’s Futaba ]

Honestly most governments suck somehow or another. The big question becomes how much crappy adults willing to steamroll over people for power are able to get it.

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[saint_sami]

Empires aren't inherently bad. They're only bad when people do bad things to others. Some empires actually make things good. And even if they are bad, there are those who want to make good, but they can't.

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[gathersnomoss]

I always believe something bad will probably happen when I go to a new place. I'd rather be pleasantly surprised than have to come up with a contingency plan after I'm arrested or worse. And it's hard to make a plan when we know next to nothing about this country. And generally speaking, Empires usually have their ducks in a row when it comes to organization. A lot more important to have plans when you are dealing with their governments as compared to city-states.

Unless it's some city-state that decided to call itself an Empire because it sounded more impressive, but that's not the case here.

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[garyoutensei]

You can oversimplify things for the sake of your own naivety, but there's more to being am empire than simply having a single authority.

Empires are defined by conquest. Taking over other states and nations. That's what an Empire does. They expand, and almost always by force.

[dreamsoftomorrow]

I understand, that all makes sense and I understand why people are being cautious. I guess I just don't understand why people are acting more than cautious, it seems.

It doesn't seem very fair to go in assuming the worst when all they've done is invite us to a festival and are now called an empire. But I also don't understand all the differences yet or why anyone would change their form of government, I'm still learning, but I wanted some more perspective than what was taught in school.

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[shinra_dog]

Your optimism is always refreshing, Hope. Don't lose that.

But it's more complicated than that. "History is written by the victors." There could be more information that wasn't released. Empires grow. It's their definition. Anyone could argue it's a good or a bad thing, but there will always be people who don't want to be governed that way.

But that's not really my concern. What stands out to me is that Sen Devadatta started as a democracy, then changed -- and then became isolationist. Those are some big changes and I want to know what happened.

Believing the worst might be a bit much, but I think it's naive to accept everything at face value.

[dreamsoftomorrow]

I'm not saying to not be cautious, as we all have our own experiences. I simply don't have enough, but I told myself I'd make my own decisions rather than blindly believing what I'm told.

But I still wanted others' perspectives on this, because it seemed alarming how quick everyone seemed to jump to one end of the spectrum when we simply don't know enough. Maybe I am being too optimistic about them or naive, and I'll certainly stand corrected if that is the case, but it just doesn't seem very fair either.

[dreamsoftomorrow]

Honestly, I agree. I don't know enough to really want to decide already that they are or are not a good nation. That's why I wanted to know what others' thought about empires in general, as I wanted to see where they were coming from with their belief that they were bad.

I want to see for myself what this place is about before coming to my own conclusion as well, but learning more from others is never bad either.

I didn't know you were in line to become a ruler of your nation though, Ena. That's really cool. Can I ask more about your world? I know a bit about isolationism myself, although I suppose I didn't realize it at the time until recently.

[dreamsoftomorrow]

Being wary is never a bad thing, but it seems like it's more than that from what I see and I just wanted to learn why that was. I don't have the experience.

Even if it shares a name, history tells us they have not conquered other nations. Not yet, anyway. All they've done is shut their doors and isolated themselves, right after constant attacks it looks like. It... feels like a different situation, I guess, despite the name they share.

It just doesn't add up, so I don't want to jump the gun just yet.

[dreamsoftomorrow]

I don't have experience with any other government but my own but... well, I can say I agree on that. Mine didn't exactly work out well once the truth was out.

[dreamsoftomorrow]

Sounds like just what Nanamo said, that it all depends on who is running it.

[dreamsoftomorrow]

Well, as Ena mentioned, it's not bad to be wary, but I don't think it's a good idea making it obvious that you're coming in assuming the worst. That alone might make the situation worse when the empire is the one sending out the invitations and stuff, you know?

Basically, we're being asked to be guests and we don't really have a reason to be rude to the host. I'm sure even the Empress is aware that we're not going in without our own reservations given they've cut everyone off for ten years.

[dreamsoftomorrow]

[He just kind of sighs and scratches the back of his head.]

I know, others have told me by now but you shouldn't assume I'm just purposefully oversimplifying things. I asked because I wanted to know. Because I don't know anything about empires aside from what is being taught in the school here.

I ask because I want to learn. And then, when I go, I want to see with my own eyes and listen with my own ears and reach my own conclusions. I don't want to go in blind, but I don't want to assume the worst either. They invited us, we're the guests and going in ready to be rude to the host is only asking for the trouble you're wanting to avoid.

[dreamsoftomorrow]

I'm not accepting it at face value, Reno.

[You can probably read the huff.]

It isn't what I meant when I asked. My world was a theocracy, it's all I knew. It's all I currently know, aside from what I'm learning from Vaikuntha. I was genuine when I asked because it doesn't sound like the type of government doesn't make a nation good or bad, but the people and who the ruler (or rulers) is.

I want to know what caused the change too, I just... I don't want to assume the worst either. They're going out of their way to invite us to a festival and dinner, we should at least see what they have to say, you know?

[gathersnomoss]

I haven't decided if I'm going or not. But if I go, I can manage professional. I don't really do small talk, but I can be polite and businesslike.